Monday, March 28, 2011

I still don't like Thunderwolves.

Linky from here. I'm actually in the middle of typing up my Itzacon and Retcon reports (you're next Colin) and I only just saw Skarvald the Troll-Faced's comments this morning. I was going to put up a response on the page itself but I felt that it deserved its own post as it might get buried although I'm worried that I might be flogging a dead horse. At least it drives home the point that I don't rate TWC as highly as I used to.

And it'll make it appear as if I've been busier by typing up more quality content.


Skarvald the Troll-faced said...
You don't care about buildings, because if there's an objective on top of a floor there's a cone measured below it. This is done to prevent d-bags from putting an objective on a 4-story tall building and then hiding with 2+ cover scouts. All of the points you listed are assuming the squad is not running next to a Thunder Lord.. which they always are and should and you pretty much never see Lord-less TWC squads in tournaments. So you get a ~520 pt. squad that against most armies will take many turns to kill, will absorb at least double the points a TURN to even get damaged. Leadership 10 because of the Lord. I had a squad of Thunderwolves and a Lord get shot up by 2000 points of Orks from an army that was tooled against them - We are talking 15 Lootas that rolled 3 shots each, 15 Tankbustas, Shoota Boyz like 2-3 squads of 12-20, wound-allocated Nobz, big shootas from trukkz and battlewagons and then shot by Nob Bikerz. Then they got charged by 10 Nobz and like 40 boyz with Nobz. The Thunderwolves won combat. Don't go around telling that Thunderwolve units are expensive, when they run you less points than a Land Raider with Terminators.

As Floody has already alluded to when you put an objective on the 2nd or 3rd floor of a building it is completely off-limits to TWC because they can only contest something on the ground and 1st floors because of the requirement to be within 3".

Feel free to call it 'd-baggery' or whatever but when you can simply place an objective (2/3 of rulebook missions remember) up high and completely deny access to it for a 500+ point deathstar you're doing something very right.

You gave an example and I shall do so too: over the weekend just gone I played two games against a Wolfblob (2 Lords and Fenris wolves) and simply put my objective in the Draw mission up 3" so the best he could do would be contest while I fired down at him from above his head. He didn't like that option so he declined to rush in.

The 500+ wolfblob ended up killing a unit of Scouts (128 pts) and a Razorback (75).

In the 2nd game against it in multiple objectives (3) I placed one objective 2 stories up protected by a unit of Fangs and 2 units of Grey Hunters. He sent the Blob and a Grey Hunter-laden Rhino at it and all I had to do was destroy the Rhino and Hunters and run away from the Lords. I had to sacrifice 2 squads and a Rune Priest to get the job done but I got the win in the end.

I've got 2 problems with the example you've provided Skarvald:
1. 15 Tankbustas.
Really? Someone actually uses them? Ok, fine. They are a poor unit though
2. Why wasn't he throwing Deathrolla Wagons at the TWC and hitting the unit with D6 S10 (instant-killing) hits. All he has to do is target the non-S10 guys with his Tank Shock and he's laughing. Tank-shocking is a problem for them as I've pointed out before.

The last bit I'd comment on is this:
'All of the points you listed are assuming the squad is not running next to a Thunder Lord.. which they always are and should and you pretty much never see Lord-less TWC squads in tournaments.'

You then say:
'Don't go around telling that Thunderwolve units are expensive, when they run you less points than a Land Raider with Terminators.'

You've contradicted yourself. You have to have a Lord with a TWC unit? Right, that sets you back 200+ points depending upon equipment (Claw, Shield, 2 pets is 215).

Now, how many regular TWC are you going to need to ensure some survive being shot more than once to reach combat in a half-decent state? Its more than 3 anyway. 3 with a Shield and Hammer is 210. Added to the Lord the unit now costs 415 points for a 4-man unit with 2 ablative wounds. Its tough but not that tough.

5 TDA Hammers costs 200 points. Their Extra Armour'ed Raider costs 265. That's only an extra 50 points for a unit that:
(a) *cannot* be hurt by the enemy until their tank is destroyed.
(b) is harder to bring down than the TWC (T4 2+/3++ is better than T5 3+).
(c) can climb a building.

Sure the Termies are slower on foot but its more likely they won't be exposed to the volume of fire that the TWC will be hit with as they usually don't start the game on the table - they have the option to Deep Strike to cross the board quickly or they can hop into the deployed Land Raider when going first or being held in Reserve when going second if facing an Alpha Strike army (Dark Eldar come to mind).

Funnily enough a 50 point difference will get you an extra TWC model or fancier gear for the Lord to make it a more equal, though not ideal, comparison. They are from different armies after all. Thankfully though, they perform a broadly similar role - they ward off or counter-attack units that have strayed too close or are already engaged so the comparison isn't entirely without merit.

5 Hammernators + Land Raider Crusader with EA or Redeemer with EA and MultiMelta
TWC Lord with Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, 2 Pets + 4 TWC with 1 Shield and Hammer, Bolter, 2 Scrubs

Both should add up to 465 points. In almost every case I'd rather have the Hammernators. But Wolves realistically can't. So you go with Wolf Guard in TDA which aren't as good as a unit as their Codex cousins (they're overpriced).

For an arguably better use of the points you could simply pour them into Long Fangs. 460 points gets you 2 units of 5 with 4 Rockets, 1 unit of 6 with 1 Lascannon and 4 Rockets and a Lasplas Razorback. But we all know that Long Fangs are good already right?

A better use of the points is to make your Grey Hunters more durable. Or just take more because they are absolutely savage and will do more for an army than TWC ever will.

Btw lads, thanks for all the comments. Its always appreciated to see constructive stuff that generates debate. Except for Pinball Wizard's comments. Moo.


  1. Well here is my problem, every tournament I've ever attended has stated objectives must be on the ground level. So that is part of the problem.

    Vs SS termies, instead you are getting like 10 wounds at true T5, and they are S5, so S10 hammers in return. I don't see the Land Raider being something amazing, as fast melta takes it down reliably. The fact that TWC have fleet and 12" makes them great at jumping from spot to spot getting into combat, since the death of beasts in the nid dex, Few people expect and/or appreciate the extra 6" on that charge.

  2. Whatever baldy, constructive criticism is for people who actively play the bloody game. Slagging is much more my forté. moo.

  3. @TheGraveMind whoever tells you to put your objectives on the ground clearly has no soul and just takes out unresolved childhood frustrations on the game as a whole.

    Second, the cav aren't fast. Well they are but they can't effectively jump from spot to spot when you move an average of 9" a turn outside of terrain. They are good at board control and shepherding tactics seeing as they are serial rapists in CC. They're problem lies in the easiness of dealing with them. They can only threaten units on the ground so your fire support never has to worry about them (Fangs/devs/broadsides etc.) and it's very easy to park tanks in their way, let them kill one that's empty, spend your movement phase tank shocking 6" and if that doesn't work you can then hit them with every gun in your possession.

    And your opponent will have lots of guns because you've put lots of spare points into a giant cuddly deathstar so your fire support will likely suffer his wrath turn one/two and then he can fire at whatever he chooses from turn 3 onwards because of the serious lack of pressure on his guns. When your opponent isn't cutting himself over what to shoot his guns at you've lost the game.

  4. Lmao. Of COURSE you can place Objectives in the Sky, aren't yo familiar with the work of Ian Van Dahl?

    As for TWC vs TH/'s not really a true comparison, but I suppose you can't get much closer...except Nob Bikes, which are crap.

    Overall, I rate TWC, ofc, but are they as good as most Internet People think? No.

  5. Blogger is really starting to piss me off - it just ate one of my fucking posts.

    @TKE: That song is retro now isn't it? Afair its over 10 years old so that qualifies.

    @TheGraveMind: That is an issue that doesn't affect my national tournament scene and makes TWC better as they'll actually be able to contest every objective.

    It still doesn't stop an opponent from plonking his objective under a building and packing it full of fire support and scoring units and shooting the TWC as they approach or ignoring them until they need to clean out the objective.

    The true T5 vs T4 isn't a massive deal when it comes to taking wounds as its normally torrent of fire that will force you to take tonnes of armour saves and start taking damage. While in a Raider the Termies are immune to <S8 which is huge - it allows them to get into midfield intact, assuming the Raider hasn't been melta'd beforehand.

    There aren't too many S10 ranged things in the game (Railguns, Manticore rockets and Vindicators spring to mind) that will spam wounds and cause you to suffer instant death compared to the torrent weapons that can chip away at your unit.

    Neither is S10 a huge deal as most things will suffer Instant Death or be wounded on 2's by S8 anyway. There's also the problem of having a single guy with S10 apart from the Lord, whereas the Termies have a bucketload of S8 attacks. It does make a difference against Dreads and other vehicles but you're probably taking them apart with your shooting. Well, you should be.

    But that's by the by, as both TKE and I have pointed out, as TWC/Hammernators isn't a great comparison to make in the first place.
    @PinballWizard: Have you actually posted something constructive? Wonders never cease.

  6. I'm allowed an opinion no matter how crazily accurate they may occasionally be. Fucking Moo.


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