Friday, May 6, 2011

Lysander's Counter-Productivity

Now that's a Lysander. By Destrega.
Well, there's one of the lads in our group that's been wondering what to do with Lysander in his Ultramarine army for the past while.

There's been a few builds played upon to varying success: Sternguard in a Pod with the Big Fella dropping Turn 1; Riding dirty in a Land Raider with Termies; Loping behind vehicles ala Meph but nothing was consistently performing.

Things took a turn for the better when Shrike showed up to party by making everyone run faster: the Termies can get stuck in quicker while the Tac squads can run away from trouble.

Shrike's Fleet also means that you replace Lysander's Stubborn which I believe is actually a de-buff for Marines as a whole. Yes, Stubborn is a debuff. That goes for El Pedro too. ¿QuĂ©?

Let me explain...


Stubborn Old Fools
There's a few places on the web that'll tell you that Marine's Troops choices are bad. They're not far off - Tactical squads and Scouts don't tend to do much in a game apart from score objectives, hide in Annihilation missions and take out the odd vehicle or unit with their guns. Compare this to Termies, Dakka Preds and Speeders that are going to be doing the heavy lifting with their combat prowess, firepower and manoverability respectively.

Marines want to be shooting stuff in order to kill it, not getting bogged down in combat. Lysander granting them Stubborn means that they don't run away from combat in the event they get caught. This applies to all of their Infantry: the majority of which are non-combat builds.

Tac Marines
Scouts
Sternguard
Devastators
Terminators
Bikers/Scout bikes/Attack bikes

Compare this to the combat units in a Marine army:

Terminator Assault Squad
Command Squads

Yeah, thats it. I'd include Honour Guard, Assault Marines and Vanguard in that list but they're crap in the Marine book and I can't remember the last time I saw anyone use them tbh. I certainly haven't recommended them to anyone in the last I don't know...ever.

Stubborn which means that your units hang about in combat. You want 2 of the 11 above listed to do that. The rest you want to hang back or run away and rally (you've got to love ATSKNF) while pumping out shots with their low AP ranged weaponry. This was one of the main problems with Donnacha's army - his units were getting caught in combat and weren't running away and because he only had 2 combat units (Lysander, the TH/SS Termies) that couldn't be everywhere at once which in turn meant that his shooting wasn't as effective because he couldn't shoot the units that were battering his Marines.

It also does very little for the army against shooting: even if you are Stubborn at Ld 8 you'll still fail 1 in 3 of your tests while Ld 9 will fail 1 in 4. The guys getting shot will more than likely be the non-combat units as they are...you've guessed it, hanging back shooting stuff themselves. A Marine squad is almost always better at shooting enemies than assaulting. You want them to hang back to use their ranged low AP guns and by doing so you are prevented from obtaining the maximum benefit from the Stubborn rule: hanging around in combat regardless of how badly you lose.

Yes, I make Tactical Marines worse.
Donnacha's old list was:

Lysander
5-man TAS
Land Raider with EA
Sternguard with 4 Combi-Meltas (Lysander went here)
Pod
Ironclad
Pod
10 Marines with Melta, Combi-Melta, Missile Launcher in a Rhino
10 Marines with Melta, Missile Launcher in a Rhino
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred

A lot of his anti-tank firepower was close-ranged and Infantry-based so it could be largely neutralised simply by getting into combat. This problem was compounded because they usually couldn't get free to use their guns at a later stage as they hung around in combat with units that were able to grind them down or simply smash them to a pulp.

Things changed a bit to give more firepower from units that hung back or arrived later.

Lysander
5-man TAS
Land Raider with EA
5 or 6 Sternguard with 4 Combi-Meltas (Lysander went here)
Pod
5 Marines
Twin-Las Razor
5 Marines
Twin-Las Razor
Speeder with MM/HF
Speeder with MM/HF
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred

This had less squishy Marines and spread the anti-tank out some more but Lysander was still struggling as he was just too slow to chase things down and he was dropping with the Sternguard so they were usually exposed for a turn or two before any help could arrive. The results were predictable: the squad died and Lysander would eventually get loose but it was usually too late to sway the outcome of the game by then as opposing units just ran away from/shot at/cockblocked him.

Enter Shrike
So we were looking for speed to make Lysander catch people and give the grunts a chance to escape any predators. So Mr. YMCA came to the party. With Shrike added to the list the choice could be made between Lysander's Stubborn and having Infiltrating, Fleeting Terminators. With Lysander. No contest.

Young Man, There's no need to feel down, I said young man...
The list once again morphed:

Lysander
Shrike
10-man TAS
5 Marines
Twin-Las Razor
5 Marines
Twin-Las Razor
Speeder with MM/HF
Speeder with MM/HF
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred

The list needs more guns as the TDA do all the heavy lifting but their problem is that most of their targets move around so they hit on 4+ at best and often on 6's if one is sacrificed to push them back. This also denies them the chance to mangle the infantry inside which allows them to get away and either cockblock while shooting, tying up the Termies, or simply running and grabbing objectives. Shrike's mobility isn't fantastic either - he's too fragile to have running around on his own because his armour is relatively poor. On average 3 Krak missile shots will down him. That's not impressive.

I'm wondering about what to do with the list now. I reckon it needs lots of anti-tank to crack open transports to allow the Termies to get stuck into the units that fall out of them to allow them to either destroy them outright or stay in combat where they can't be shot at while grinding through the enemy with their Hammers and Saves.

I'm also wondering if 10 of the Termies are too many. At least in one squad. When they Infiltrate they are realistically capped at 5 guys if they want to be deployed outside 12" to get a 1 turn charge because it'll be too hard to hide them behind terrain otherwise. A 10-man unit will be confined to 18" deployment away, and you can't pull that trick against Wolves (Chooser) and Grey Knights (Servo Skulls) for the most part, which forces you to run from your deployment zone. Or near it. Its not too much of a problem though when all 10 of them have 2+/3++ and you can allocate hits onto Shrike if you need to but you don't want to have to run the gauntlet of enemy firepower when they can shoot you as they drive away. Shrike also can't leave that unit because he's too fragile - 1 S8 weapon and a failed save and he falls over. His I5 Lightning Claws are also going to be handy for swinging before the enemy does reducing the number of attacks that get directed at the Terminators.

However, if given the choice between footslogging and riding in style, I'd much rather have the unit race across the board in a tank protecting them from the worst enemy fire before disgorging them into the enemy lines. A Land Raider moves 12", the lads hop out 2", the base of a Terminator is an inch-and-a-half, you fleet D6" and assault 6". That's a potential 27 1/2" of movement in a turn. That applies to Lysander too if he's put in a Raider on his own. That gives you a nice threat to Wolves, Grey Knights and Marines that like to control the midfield and a decent counter-assault unit to Orks, Nids, Blood Angels and other armies that want to rush you.


Shrike Mk 2
With that in mind I'd suggest swapping it to the following:

Lysander
Ultramarines are finally good for something, Donnacha.
Shrike
5-man TAS
Land Raider with Extra Armour
5 Tac Marines
Lasplas Razor
5 Tac Marines
Lasplas Razor
5 Scouts with Sniper Rifles
Land Speeder with MultiMelta/Heavy Flamer
Land Speeder with MultiMelta/Heavy Flamer
AutoLas Predator
AutoLas Predator
Dakka Predator

You've now got 3 Troops choices, one of which can happily hide while making use of Lysander's Bolster Defences (so you save points on Camo Cloaks), two of which can advance while firing their Lascannons. The Plasma guns are an added bonus when it comes to (a) tagging infantry and (b) making it harder to kill the tank as it requires an extra weapon destroyed result to wreck it. Plus your Marines can't burn their own fingers (and potentially take a Morale test as a result...).

There's also more anti-tank weaponry spread out allowing you to hammer more targets: the Speeders can hit 2, the Predators 2, the Land Raider 2 and the Razors another 2. That's 10, not counting the Termies and Shrike multi-charging parking lots. It does increase the Kill Points of the list (we use these in 1/3 of our games fwiw) but the adage 'Its not what you lose but what you can kill' comes to mind.

Here you have options open to you with the Termies: you can Infiltrate them with Shrike; you can pop them in the Land Raider and smash them into a point in the enemy line as is their usual MO(with the extra distance noted above); or you can keep them in your lines and counter-attack stuff.

Actually scratch that last one: use Lysander for that instead. If you turn a Rhino or Razor sideways you can hide him completely so he can't be shot. Be careful with this though - if you put him behind one of those with their front armour showing you can see his feet. Lysander is better for this solo as he's easier to hide and has a better chance to kill vehicles/walkers that stray over to your side of the board. The Termies should be smashing shit up with Shrike or tearing across the board in their Raider looking to wreck things.

Forward! Frontal charges never fail!
Lysander-specific builds
Going back to the big yellow fella the best builds you can have revolve around combat units taking advantage of his Stubborn Combat Tactic. Both of them.

Its probably why he doesn't work at 1750 point games as his buff only kicks in when you can comfortably buy 2 squads of Termies and 3 Troops minimum to back them up. At 1750, 2 TAS in Raiders with Lysander is over 1000 points leaving only 700 odd points to support them.

Lysander
2 x 5 TAS in Land Raider with Extra Armour, 1 with MM
3 x 5 Scouts
2 x Speeders with MM/HF
2 x AutoLas Preds

To be honest I'd rather have 15 Terminators benefitting from Stubborn than 10 but at least this can take on both Vehicles and Infantry with the spread of weaponry although its ability to take out tanks is limited. The Raiders want to be moving 12" a turn to deliver their cargo, they want to smoke when they first move up and then they want to get away quickly from Meltas after the Terminators have hopped out which entails them driving away as fast as possible.

You've got Stubborn Terminators which mean that you can rely on them to hang on in there and grind their way through a combat but again you need your tanks to Stun or Immobilise them at worst but hopefully wreck them. Your work is cut out for you with so few Meltas/Lascannons so the Terminators have to do much of the lifting.

I'd rather have guns doing that - at the very least when a vehicle is destroyed (explodes) by something from across the board you don't risk your Stubborn units taking casualties and embarrassingly running away if they fail their test.

No, Stubborn isn't that great for Vanilla Marines is it?

11 comments:

  1. Stubborn isn't great for marine infantry which there isn't a lot of. Termies rarely need it as you've likely been shot or torrented to pieces in combat anyway that sticking around only helps your opponent. Mr. Shrike does fix this small niggle, wouldn't say its massive as the deed should already be done by then with regards killing marine infantry.

    The new shrike list works nicely. Donnacha's problem was the crippling shortage of anti-tank. Kill the speeders and then drive on. The 2 options were either more Speeders or autolas preds really and I think some armour 13 is welcome. I'd nearly drop the dakkapred for another speeder but that's me.

    Moo.

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  2. Also this piece of crap WAAC blog is why people don't play anymore. Shame on you.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Shrike's boost isn't to help you shred stuff - its to get you into combat in the first place.

    It's very handy when something expendable is parked in front of your tank/unit and the unit inside is still able to reach enemies despite being cockblocked.

    When you've pumped 400 points into combat units (595 when Kevin Shrike is counted) you want to do everything you can to get them into assaults to earn their points back. Shrike is a good investment in this regard.

    I was wondering why you'd pussied out and started Whoremachine. For shame.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Internets has resulted in misinterpretation. Shrike ain't much in combat, the little niggle i was referring to was that he replaces stubborn thus allowing you to get the hell out of combats. Is it better than stubborn? yes.
    Is stubborn that big a deal to vanilla? Nope.

    Whoremachine = lolz.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Shrike, Lysander, and TH/SS Termies is a viable and tough list to crack. Scouts as at least 1 scoring unit works, and with 15 rolls with that thunderhammer, I am sure you will get at least 1 6!

    ReplyDelete
  6. 'Is stubborn that big a deal to vanilla? Nope.'
    Ya it is. That was the point of the article: Stubborn is a debuff and this a big deal. A negative one.

    @Spaggy: That's what I was reckoning on. 5 guys is enough to hide behind LOS-blocking terrain and still have enough models to have an impact in assault. They don't need Lysander to infiltrate either to be effective allowing you to keep him back or push forward as necessary.

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  7. I just don't think it's that big a deal to vanilla. you've fuckall infantry to begin with and if anyone's stupid enough to charge em without killing them outright or using to block shooting next turn deserves a hiding.

    If you look above you'll notice that I agree that they are in fact better off without it.

    it's handy when you read stuff.

    ReplyDelete
  8. 'If you look above you'll notice that I agree that they are in fact better off without it.

    it's handy when you read stuff.'
    Ya it is. But it's better if I ignore you. Or taunt you.

    'If anyone's stupid enough to charge em without killing them outright'
    That depends on dice - you saw Chambers' lower than average rolling against your lot. If you lose combat by 7 but still pass your test you can't shoot.

    If you can move fast you can get away in the first place. But now we're going in circles.

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  9. Might as well stop now. We're debating the finer details on an otherwise terrible troops choice. Everything depends on dice. By rights you also might not get bogged down in that combat because the other guy won't roll high enough to get through cover. Which you will be in.

    Anyway it doesn't matter as you said and I think we can agree stubborn or not tac marines in the open ain't gonna have a nice day.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Ya. Heckling is fun. Especially if its Rob or Floody. Or Ivan: he always tries to blame the dice.

    The dice.

    ReplyDelete

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